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RE: bytecode unification for scripting (and other!) languages
Michael Vanier asks:
> Just out of curiosity, why do you think scripting is a bogus notion?
Michael defines scripting as a two-language approach: one
statically-compiled that compiles to fast machine code, and another
interpreted or bytecode compiled on-the-fly.
There's nothing wrong with scripting per se. It's nice to have a
pithy, interactive environment from which to test and write small
programs atop useful libraries. Indeed, we recently used Skij as a
"scripting" environment to test out a few modifications we've made to
My problem is with the implication of scripting for engineering
robust, long-standing systems. While some scripts truly are limited-
(even single-) use, most of them are not. I venture that this is
especially true of scripts that actually use a library in C/C++. Just
the work needed to read/remember the documentation for the library is
enough to make sure you'll try to build a reusable block out of the
code that uses the library, so you won't have to look up that
In short, scripts grow up. They turn into real programs. They follow
Jamie Zawinski's Law of Software Envelopment: "All programs eventually
include a subsystem that reads mail, or get replaced by one that does"
(paraphrased, since I'm on a commuter rail between Boston and
Providence, away from my filesystem; he put it somewhat better). All
of a sudden, the *scripting* language has to function as a
*programming* language. And this is where the cracks become quite
What does a *programming* language need? It needs to provide and
enforce abstraction boundaries -- the same things that scripting
languages tear down (because that's exactly how you can develop
scripts rapidly). It needs a real compiler. It needs static type
systems. It needs tool support that help programmers build realistic
Every few years, yet another scripting language's community seems to
discover soft typing. Maybe because I'm the PLT loudmouth, they
inevitably end up in a long thread with me. I've been through this
with Guile, Python and Tcl. Every time, some smart, bright-eyed and
bushy-tailed person sets out to build a soft typer for their language.
Every time, a few weeks in, they finally realize why this is such a
hideously difficult undertaking, and give up. (You can still find
some of my posts on soft typing Python in Web archives, dating back
about four years!)
In some sense, therefore, I think scripting languages are
fundamentally weak at producing large, robust software systems. And
the evidence is very much that people will try to produce large
software systems in them, simply because the low barriers to entry
make it very tempting to attempt (the initial steps of) something very
ambitious. I still recall recoiling in horror the day in 1994 when
someone sent me a 1200-line Perl script implementing a Web server. It
was clearly something that should never have happened.
So where does this leave PLT Scheme?
One of the things I like about PLT Scheme is that it seems to offer a
path for growth. The basic language is pretty simple, and it offers a
decent set of libraries. The execution engine is fast. You have a
migration path from that to a fairly robust program that passes
MrSpidey and is compiled by mzc. This path is not automatic, but
simply using MrSpidey to help you replace all the generic CONSes with
structures is a big win. These are good tools, not phenomenal ones,
but it's largely better than what the competition has. So I like this
point in space.
That said, I don't think of PLT Scheme as a scripting language. It's
an *alternative to* a scripting language, but not one itself. It
simply doesn't compromise enough. Its syntax isn't right; its
semantics are too rigid; there aren't enough libraries; there's no
overloading; you have to remember too much of a type signature and
type way too many characters to match a regular expression against a
line, and do even more to pull out and use the result.
Is that acceptable? Maybe it is to you. If so, then we really have
no disagreement. But I'm not sure it should be.
I think there is a design space worth exploring. It sits beneath PLT
Scheme but doesn't contradict it. Its syntax is simpler, and it
provides some conveniences for regexps and the like. But this is the
boring stuff. The fun part is the type system.
I don't believe that scripting languages should not be typed. I just
don't think their programs should be typed *in totality*. There needs
to be a useful way of saying "this stuff I know is of this type (and
tell me if I'm wrong) whereas for that stuff I have no idea of its
type". In particular, this requires a simple yet powerful way of
typing the myriad of data streams -- whether from files or from
network sockets -- that scripts must process. (If you think about it,
that type information is implicitly there in your program -- it's in
the regexps that you write!) I had a PhD student working on this
using a kind of dependent constraint analysis, but he's taken a leave
of absence, so the project is on the back-burner awaiting someone to
Hope that helps.