Re: Any Other Lists?

[Paul Fernhout <pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com>]

Joey -

Interesting question. I too would like to learn about any other lists
for Scheme. 

=== on scheme lists =====

I just tried to liven things up with my last two posts -- one on
DrScheme documentation and another on firewall ideas with potential
applications in DrScheme.

Yes, comp.lang.scheme does seem slow. I had assumed that was a
reflection of the relative user base, but maybe that isn't necessarily
so.  For example, the Squeak list I am on has a huge volume, but by
looking at comp.lang.smalltalk you'd think Squeak was hardly used. So to
with Dolphin Smalltalk. 

I made a recent post to comp.lang.lisp (even though I would have
preferred mostly to get Scheme specific advice) mainly because the
traffic there is much larger. The mention of Scheme (in addition to
Lisp) did ruffle a few feathers, so comp.lang.lisp really seems more for
discussing Common Lisp these days than alternatives with Lisp like
syntax.

=== on this list's reply to field ===

One factor at work regarding traffic on this PLT list is that the "reply
to" field for this list is set to the sender (not the list). This has
good and bad points. 

The good point is people don't accidentally send replies meant for
individual authors to the list. I've seen that happen on several
occasions (including myself once or twice early on) say with the Squeak
list.
Of course, if you follow the advice of only saying in email what you
wouldn't mind reading in the New York Times tomorrow, you're still safe.
:-)

The bad point is that default replies to the sender generates private
traffic that might be of interest to list users. For example, I'v
recieved quite a few private emails on my various questions to this list
on extensions for DrScheme. I tried to summarize them, but since they
were sent privately I didn't want to just forward them to the list.

Based on the "reply to" choice, it was my assumption the list owner was
hoping for low traffic.

=== on this PLT list's charter ====

Perhaps it would help at this point to have a broadcast of this mailing
list charter and what would be desirable topics of conversation, and
what would be off topic? It would be my expectation that general Scheme
discussions not relating somehow to DrScheme etc. would be off-topic.
That might be incorrect.

For example, I had a problem with "(loop-until start done? next f)" but
I thought it probably would not be OK to post it. It turned out I had
the last two arguements flipped (off-topic?), although for a while I was
almost convinced it was an input port bug (on-topic?). 

My feeling is that since the DrScheme people probably answer questions
all day from students (and teachers) about Scheme, this list should be
for things they (the DrScheme developers) will find more interesting.
Sometimes these are things more at the edges of the sytem. 

On the other hand, this list also becomes an archive of useful
information for students. Thus, students might find the answer in the
web archive of this list 
  http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/mailarch/
instead of having to ask the professor (thus perhaps ultimately saving
them time). However, the web archive is not that easily searchable.

What I see regarding the PLT list's charter from:
  http://www.cs.rice.edu/CS/PLT/packages/misc/mailinglist.html
is "Questions, comments, and general discussion about PLT software may
be directed to the plt-scheme@flux.cs.utah.edu mailing list." There is
some ambiguity there (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). 

Also, a team at Utah is also involved. They are presumably closer to the
Flux OSKit team. I've been interested in questions related to the
stand-alone self booting 80X86 MzScheme, but wasn't sure if it was
on-topic to ask those questions here.

It also isn't clear to what extent it would be "on topic" for this list
to discuss the more general issues of the PLT mission 
  http://www.cs.rice.edu/CS/PLT/
of "advanced programming languages -- including their design, semantics,
implementations and programming environments -- and their application to
software engineering issues, particularly reuse" (assuming they involve
extending DrScheme -- or is that required?)

Anyway, without trying to remove all ambiguity, perhaps the list owners
could in general provide some examples of what sorts of things they
certainly would or wouldn't mind having discussed on this list, or what
sorts of discussions they want to have, or what level of traffic in
general they desire.  

=== whether to send bug reports  or suggestions to the list ===

Actually, I've been even a little leary of whether I should report bugs
(or bad doc links) on this list or send them through the help desk (so
I've tried to sneak them into other posts in passing). :-) 

Also, I've wondered whether I should be sending some comments directly
to scheme@cs.rice.edu instead of this list (like the one on
documentation suggestions). I think the benefit of sending suggestions
to the list is that other people can see what is going on and comment on
them too.

I think part of my early confusion was that the beginning of the web
page on the mailing list referenced above talks first about the announce
list and not to send bug reports or questions to plt-tools-request but
to send them to two rice addresses. It's only the second part of that
page talks about this list. So there is overlap, but I am not sure what
is quite appropriate for what. Perhaps one should send things to those
addresses unless one is on this plt-scheme@flux.cs.utah.edu mailing
list?

=== some other issues related to this PLT list ===

By the way, as a minor quibble to the powers that be, it might be nice
if mailing list posts had [PLT] (or whatever) appended at the start of
the header. I use Netscape so I can filter them on the sender, but I
still like having a prefix for email from a list. For people not using
mail filtering, a prefix is really essential to avoid getting emails
ignored.

Also, it must not be clear who can post to the list (i.e. whether
posters are on the list), because I usually get two replies to things I
post to this list (one sent directly to me, and one sent to the list).
This is actually nice in a way because the direct reply gets to me
faster than the one through the list (usually it seems by a half-hour or
more). But it does make me wonder if anyone can post to the list who
isn't on it. In the case of the Squeak list, you can only post to it if
you are on it. Again, I think the [PLT] or whatever in front of emails
might make it easier to distinguish things sent from people on the list
(and who can thus be expected to receive replies back to the list).

=== regarding your question ====

Actually, I was dreading your email to be about how there was too much
traffic on this list -- mostly from me lately! ;-) I know I'm usually
guilty of sending longish essays more than quick emails with a few line
most people prefer. I've been grateful for all the replies (many from
the DrScheme authors), especially since I know that it's a busy life
when you're with a university.

Anyway, along the lines of your question, (assuming this isn't too
off-topic), without actually discussing them, what sorts of things would
you like to see discussed regarding Scheme or DrScheme? I presume with
your involvement with Pocket Smalltalk you might be interested in issues
like working in one environment (DrScheme) and building a small
deployment application (Pocket DrScheme) along with related namespace
issues and cross-system development tools and such?

-Paul Fernhout
Kurtz-Fernhout Software 
=========================================================
Developers of custom software and educational simulations
Creators of the Garden with Insight(TM) garden simulator
http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com

Joey Gibson wrote:
> 
>         Does anyone know of any other Scheme mailing lists that are still
> alive? I know about this one, obviously, but I'd like to get on one with a
> bit more traffic. There once was a gateway list to comp.lang.scheme, but it
> seems to be dead, and c.l.s. is pretty slow anyway.
> 
> Joey
> 
> --
> -- Sun Certified Java2 Programmer
> -- My Pocket Smalltalk Stuff: www.mindspring.com/~joeygibson/st/
> --
> -- Watch out for that pig....